Caitlin Bacher:
Hey there, you’re listening to Scale with Success®. The Podcast Built for Course Creators™. And in today’s episode, we are diving into what it takes to successfully use Facebook ads to scale your course. So we invited Emily Hirsh, to share her perspective as the founder of one of the fastest growing digital marketing agencies in our space, Hirsh Marketing. We’re talking about the different kinds of ads you need, what to be tracking, and even how the latest iOS updates may be impacting your approach. So if you are wondering how to really leverage Facebook ads to help you scale, then keep listening because we have a lot to share with you. So stay tuned.
Caitlin Bacher:
My name is Caitlin Bacher, Founder & CEO of Scale with Success®. And I’m on a mission to help course creators all over the world, grow their business in a way that is profitable and scalable. Together with my co-host and director of marketing, Karie Price, we’re sharing, revealing conversations about what it really takes to scale an online course business to millions of dollars per year. Join us here to discover the tough decisions we’ve had to make, the biggest failures we’ve had to bounce back from and the learnings that emerged every step of the way. We are so grateful that we have the chance to share it all with you right here on Scale with Success®, The Podcast Built for Course Creators™. Let’s get started.
Caitlin Bacher:
So to successfully scale your online course business to and through seven figures, it’s important that you have a well-defined offer, an effective marketing and sales system, the ability to seamlessly serve your clients and the right team to make all of that happen. Once you have those systems in place, you can really accelerate your growth with paid marketing strategies to reach more people more quickly. Which is why we are so excited to have Emily Hirsh, as our guest today. She is a leading digital marketing strategist and founder of Hirsh Marketing, one of the fastest growing digital marketing agencies that is responsible for helping their clients generate more than $106 million in client revenue and counting. So before we dive in Emily, can you share with us a little bit about yourself and why you are so passionate about what you do?
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah. I’m so excited. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so I started my company, gosh, it’s about six years ago when I became a mom and I fell into the online world, specifically people with digital products, courses, online services. And I didn’t know it existed before then. And like a lot of people started their company, tried a bunch of things and then landed in Facebook ads. And since then that’s been what I do, Facebook ads and marketing and the strategy and the psychology and the funnels and all of that, that goes into a really great marketing strategy. And I’ve worked to build my team over the last four years. I have 27 employees and we’ve over 50 clients we work with. And I think if it boils down to what I’m most passionate about, marketing would be the easy answer, but I think it’s more the concept of a successful marketing strategy can work for any business and I truly believe that, that has a great offer.
Emily Hirsh:
And a lot of people think that marketing or Facebook ads is like this magic trick and I might strike luck one time when I try it or something, or she has something that I don’t. And I really believe it’s a process and it can work for everybody if you follow that process. And so that’s how I built my own company, that’s how we support clients is like you have a goal let’s just work backwards and figure out how to get you to that goal. Not cross our fingers and see if we can do it. So that’s what I’m most passionate about is empowering people to combine the right things and the right components of that formula to create the success.
Caitlin Bacher:
And let me just, you do an amazing job of that because your name pops up all the time inside of our client community anytime anyone is asking for a referral, they’re ready to work within an ad agency. People are always recommending Hirsh Marketing. And so we’ve just heard so many great things about you.
Karie Price:
Yeah. We are definitely big believers in course creators using Facebook ads as a component to scaling their course when the time is right. And we know that there’s a lot of mixed feelings about using ads, a lot of apprehension, especially with the recent iOS changes and all of the changes that happen in the digital marketing space. But what we also know is that following a clear and proven framework leads to success. And I know you’re a firm believer in that too. So could you share with us the highlights of your process that you use to help your clients scale their revenue with paid traffic?
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So we have a five step process and I love how Caitlin and I are so similar with our business, the way we teach. It’s like, it’s all about the process. It always comes back to that whenever someone has a question or is confused or whatever. So we have a five step process. The first step is strategize and that’s your marketing foundation. And right now a lot of people are like iOS updates and freaked out about that, and what do I do? And my biggest response to that – aside from tactical things that you need to do and technical things you need to know from it – is that the iOS update is going to shine a light on somebody who doesn’t have their foundation in place. And so strategize is what happens before you even run ads. It is the understanding of your ideal customer, it’s your messaging, it’s the angles you’re going to go into your marketing with, how are you going to stand out from everybody else?
Emily Hirsh:
What is your strategy? Are you creating that strategy so it makes sense for your audience and not just because you saw somebody else do it? What is that foundation that you’re going to eventually amplify with your ads? And I think you guys actually help people get that in place, because I know our clients come over and that’s in place and we help them amplify that. And that’s why we love working with your clients because they always have that in place. But a lot of people don’t, a lot of people are operating on a really broken foundation and iOS updates or anything that comes down the pipeline now, or a year from now in digital marketing is not going to derail you if you have that foundation and you come back to that foundation, which I’d say the most important part of that is messaging, that’s what most people are missing is they stay very surface level. They try to talk to everybody and then they don’t stand out in the industry because it’s just getting more saturated, it’s getting harder.
Emily Hirsh:
And whenever someone says to me, do webinars still work? Or do Facebook ads still work? I’m like, yeah, they still work, you just have to be the best. And if you’re the best, they will still work. So that’s the first step in the process. You guys can jump in at any time or I’ll just keep going through the steps.
Caitlin Bacher:
So can you talk a little bit more about messaging Emily? Because I feel like that’s a word that a lot of our listeners hear a lot of times, but sometimes people don’t even know what it actually means. So how would you define messaging?
Emily Hirsh:
So to me it starts with your understanding of your ideal customer and not just what’s their age, what’s their gender, the demographic stuff, it’s the emotional component. What are their fears? What are their desires? What are their dreams and what are they actually saying in their words that you can then translate over into your marketing? Because also a lot of times people think they know and they’re writing it in their words and their technical language because they eat and breathe their industry. And then there’s a disconnect when it comes to actually talking to their ideal customer. So the first is understanding an ideal customer, one single ideal customer that you can speak to. And then once you have that, you can learn just to speak to them, meaning different angles and hooks that you can bring them in.
Emily Hirsh:
And to me, messaging is about going really deep with your content and taking it three levels deeper than just the surface. And so I guess an example of that would be like, if you’re talking about the problem you solve and you read it and you say, everybody wants to solve that problem, you haven’t gone deep enough because you’re not going to capture anybody if you’re like, let me show you how to save time or let me show you how to make money. That’s not enough and so we have to take it to the next level and figure out what are those unique dreams and frustrations that your ideal customer is experiencing. And one way you can do it as literally interviewed them, get on the phone with them and talk to them and write down what they’re saying and use that in your marketing. But people just don’t take the time to do that or they’re trying to go after four or five different people and they’re talking to everybody which we know that that means you’re talking to nobody.
Caitlin Bacher:
Yeah. That’s a really big shift for people in narrowing down. I know even people, especially newer course creators, who have a framework or a process that they say, well, this can help so many people, this process for making money or for finding love or whatever it is, can really work for anyone. And the reality is that that’s great that it can work for anyone. I think even when I look at my own process, I’m like, this could really work for a lot of people, but we’re targeting course creators specifically. And so I think that there is a definite shift and a leap of faith that needs to happen when you’re first getting started.
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah, absolutely. Because you’re going to be pulled, everybody, especially in the beginning, you want to make the sales, you want to see your business growing. And so when you say no to a group of people or to an opportunity, it feels like you’re shutting out potential, but really every yes is also a no somewhere else. And so you don’t see that necessarily, but I think like for you, for example, you’ve been able to grow such a successful business and it was a bold move to say, this is just for course creators, we’re eliminating all these other groups of people that we probably could help, we could mold a little bit of our process, we can change this and still help them. But that’s one of the key things to your success is getting that specific because then all of your content is cohesive and speaking to that person.
Caitlin Bacher:
Yeah. So let’s talk about your second step. What’s after strategize?
Emily Hirsh:
So the next step is brand awareness and visibility. And so this is where now you have an understanding of your ideal customer and you have your core foundation and your strategy. Now we go to your content that you’re creating. And I think a lot of people also skip this or like, okay, I’m ready for ads. I don’t have to do any content. I don’t have to warm up my audience. I’m just going to go start ads to my webinar and it’s going to work great. So this is two part. It is creating the great content that is for your ideal customer that you’ve defined and actually getting that out there. And then it’s also tying a little bit of ad spend to it. So we typically say about five to 10% of your monthly budget goes to this content, at least because then you’re building those audiences, you’re creating those touch points.
Emily Hirsh:
I see so many people put so much effort into their content and then 50 people see the video or actually go consume it. And by doing this, I mean, I’m sure you’ve done these ads, they’re very inexpensive ads, they’re one of the most inexpensive ads you can run. And that way you can start building that trust with your audience, building those touch points that will ultimately lead to the sale, but are just building that following, building those warm audiences of your video views, people engaging with your social media, people going to your website. So that’s a critical piece and it’s really ongoing. So we recommend doing five to 10% of your ad budget to your really quality content every single month, you’re updating new content and you’re running those ads.
Karie Price:
And I love what you said about that, Emily, that so many people, they put out this great content and 50 people see it. So much time and effort goes into creating high value content that you need to get it out there in front of more people. And that’s, what’s going to help you identify those ideal clients, but you’ve got to cast the net, you’ve got to get it out to a larger audience. And so I think sometimes when people embark on that and you can tell me if I’m off base here, but I feel like people look at that as wasting money on ads, like they spent money and they didn’t get a direct return on it, but it is such an important step in that process.
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah. I think that it’s hard because you don’t see the actual conversion right away. And one way to measure the success is when you get to re-target those audiences, like, let’s say they’re half the cost of your webinar registration or something, that’s a way to measure it. But it’s one of those things that’s like, just like when you post on social media, you can’t see the conversion right away, but if you do that for a year and you’re consistent with the content you put out, it will pay off. And that’s part of the equation is that consistency, getting new people to view your content and building those audiences, which really become an asset for your business. So that any time you want to do a promotion or let’s say there is something with Facebook or a recession or something, if you have those warm audiences, you’re going to be okay. But people who don’t, are going to have a lot harder of a time through those times. And so that’s an asset that you should be consistently putting time and resources into.
Caitlin Bacher:
I love that it really builds in stability into your business.
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah, exactly.
Caitlin Bacher:
Okay. So we have so strategize is number one, brand awareness and visibility is number two. What’s step number three?
Emily Hirsh:
So step three is then lead generation, which is where most people want to start. But now we get to lead generation specifically for course creators this is where the majority of your ad spend is going to be spent, the top of your funnel. So that could be a webinar, that can be a challenge, a lead magnet. You could have two, if you do a lead magnet and then a webinar, but this is where you’re getting those email leads. And so a couple of points on that is yes, it is running that just lead generation ads to get as many leads as we can through the funnel. Usually about 80% of your ad budget will go here depending on how you allocate like to the warm audiences. But this is where we can use those audiences from the previous step and actually target to your webinar because somebody who’s watched a video of yours on Facebook, and then seeing your webinar ad, sign up for your webinar, gone to your webinar, is going to one, probably be a cheaper lead, but also be a more quality lead because they’ve already had a touch point with you.
Emily Hirsh:
They’ve already consumed your video, they’ve started to build that trust. And so that’s where you can pair the step two and step three with each other to create extra touch points, because it’s pretty rare that someone signs up for a webinar, watches webinar, buys within two hours of signing up, it does happen, but it’s such a small percentage of people and so you have to have that more long game mentality. And the goal here is to get as many quality leads as you can, through that funnel who are, some are going to be warm audiences, some might be cold and get them through to the sales part.
Caitlin Bacher:
One of the things that I really love about you, Emily, and about the way that you see business is you are so focused on the long game. And that’s probably why a lot of your clients experience such success in working with you because it’s not about, yes, there is low hanging fruit out there. Yes, you can get a few sales, but we’re not interested in helping you build the business where you get a few sales, we want it to be like a snowball where it’s building momentum over time and that takes a bit of patience.
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah, exactly. For sure. And I mean, and your leads are also a massive asset to your business too. And that’s going into the next step is like, what do you do with those leads that you’re building? So your brand awareness and visibility is building that, following that warm audience, and then your lead generation is building your email list, which also is 100% an asset. And I know that you know this, and I know this too, is people might buy in a year after being on my list or six months. And what is your average time that someone sits on your list before buying? And so if you’re in it for that quick win, you won’t be in it for very long before you’re very disappointed in that because it is absolutely a long game and that’s so important.
Caitlin Bacher:
And I’m glad that you’re normalizing that because I think a lot of times, especially newer entrepreneurs have this expectation that they should be getting sales right away. And if they don’t see that, if they aren’t seeing sales right away, they start to get a little bit nervous about, oh, maybe I’m doing this wrong, or I thought I was going to be a millionaire in a week. What’s happening here? And it’s like, no, that actually takes time.
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah. And if it’s not working, you’re actually probably doing it right because it never works the first time you put out a webinar or you do something the first time, there’s always going to be that time where you have to optimize it. That’s what I was saying in the beginning of what I’m passionate about is that process, if you follow this process, you will find success, but you have to be willing when it feels harder, it feels like, hey, this isn’t working I want to throw the towel in to keep going. And if you could do that, you’ll find the success.
Caitlin Bacher:
Yeah. So let’s talk about step number five.
Emily Hirsh:
Four. We’re on four, we did three lead gen. Yeah. Let’s talk about four. I kind of mentioned it. So I was confusing. Yeah. So step four is sales and retargeting. So this is where, okay, you’ve got your leads coming in your funnel, hopefully coming to your webinar or whatever that engagement looks like for your strategy. And now we have to do two things, we have to follow up with them and email and re-target them with ads to get those sales. And that’s where our goal is to convert the most amount we can, of those leads, which comes from the initial time that you pitched the offer, let’s just use a webinar because a lot of your students are probably doing that. But the initial time you pitched that offer and then what’s happening after that, what is that experience? Are you going to re offer it to them in 30 days? How are you going to nurture them? What’s going to happen in six months from now? And how are we going to get that conversion?
Emily Hirsh:
And I also see a lot of people make this mistake where they get the leads in and then they pitch them one time and then nothing happens after that. And they’re like, well, that’s my sales conversion, I got one sale. And it’s like, but you have 500 leads that you can still convert. So there’s a lot of opportunity. I love re-targeting ads and creating an experience where you can re-target people who watched your webinar, but didn’t buy or went to your sales page, but didn’t finish checking out. There’s really so much you can do with creating that experience, which leads to the sales. And that’s truly the low hanging fruit is because you’ve already, probably done the work of content and getting them to sign up for something, maybe even coming to your webinar. And now you just have to finish and sell them, which comes down to the positioning of your offer and how much nurturing you gave them. But there’s a lot in re-targeting ads because you can spend a small amount and get a huge return because these guys are so warm and they’re so close to buying.
Karie Price:
I think Emily that’s just another example of what you talk about the long game and really having a full process and system that it’s not like a once and done thing. Like you said, it’s not like, oh, I made the pitch and they didn’t buy so I’m done with them. What do you need to continue to do? What are the systems that you need to have in place? Because you spent time and money to get that lead on your list and into your sphere.
Emily Hirsh:
Exactly, yep.
Karie Price:
So I think for people who aren’t doing this, if you take away anything from what Emily is talking about today, take away this, that audience that you have, is gold.
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah. And seeing exactly the leads and the audience that you’re building as future potential. And so there’s value and not even if you haven’t converted it to as many sales as you want, you’re still getting somewhere, if you’re building that and you’re building an engaged audience. So, okay, then step five, the fifth step in the process is scale and optimize. And so you’re either doing one of these pretty much always. So you’re either optimizing, let’s say you have the brand awareness and visibility, you launch your lead gen and you’ve got sales and you think it’s set up right and now you go back and you’re like, I’m not getting sales or I’m paying $20 cost per registration, whatever the gap is. This is where the process kicks in, if it’s like, it’s not launch a Facebook ad, cross my fingers, maybe the algorithm will work for me and I’ll see in a week. It’s like, get the data and now allow that to tell you where the problem is and tell you where the opportunity is for you to improve, to get it to convert.
Emily Hirsh:
And that’s my favorite part about it is because I think true marketing kicks in when you have something that didn’t work correctly and you go back and you fix it and you see an improvement in the results. True marketing is not like launch a campaign and it works, literally, nobody does that. And I’ve worked with eight figure business owners, they still go through this process. It’s a little easier for them because they have a warm audience, but they still go through this process. So you’re either doing that, optimizing or hopefully getting to the place where you can start to increase your ad spend because you’re starting to see that momentum and you’re scaling.
Caitlin Bacher:
And I think that the big takeaway there is that you’re using data to make these optimization adjustments. You’re not just guessing, or it’s not just randomly picking something, if you understand how to read numbers effectively, the numbers will guide you. They’ll tell you, hey, this over here is what needs to be fixed, no, maybe it’s this over here. A lot of times people get in this space where they’re like, oh, my ads aren’t where they want to be, so now I have to go back and redo everything. I need to create a new course, I need to create a new, find a new audience, I need a new webinar, I need new ads, I need a new ads team, a new everything. It’s like, whoa, you weren’t just getting… Congratulations on getting to step five, this is really just the beginning. I know in your mind, you think it’s the end of the framework, but it’s really not, that’s where it’s like, we’re just getting started, this is really just the beginning of what we can create together.
Emily Hirsh:
Absolutely. 100%. And I think that knowing that is a part of the process is so helpful for people. Because like you said, the new thing is exactly what people do is like, oh, I launched it, it didn’t work, okay I need to go back and have brand new funnel, brand new course, all new. And it’s like, you’re back at square one now and you won’t be able to get there, you have to start back over. And so a lot of times too, I think people over complicate data and numbers, and I would say, I mean, I would guess to say 90% of business owners don’t know their numbers, it’s a big problem. There’s one thing you can do to grow your business, there’s a lot of things you can do, but knowing your numbers is huge and not letting it overwhelm you because it doesn’t have to be overwhelming, a number should equal an action and it should equal something actually happening and shouldn’t be some random number that you’re just trying to figure out what the meaning is of it.
Emily Hirsh:
And so throughout your funnel, you’ve got like, okay, are they clicking on your ad? Okay, are they opting in on your landing page? Are they signing up for your webinar? Are they watching your webinar? It’s just actions throughout your customer journey. And so you don’t have to overcomplicate data and be like, I didn’t go to college for data, it’s not complicated, it’s just correlated to actions people are taking throughout your customer journey. And that’s how I like to look at it. And again, so many business owners come to us and they’re like, this isn’t working, what do I do? And we’re like, where are your numbers? And they’re like, we don’t know. So just doing that will help you so much with knowing what to do next and data should drive all of your actions and decisions.
Caitlin Bacher:
And the other mistake that I see a lot of times people make is they know they should be tracking numbers, so they’re tracking some numbers, but they’re not the right ones.
Emily Hirsh:
They don’t have meaning. Yeah.
Caitlin Bacher:
I totally see why you’re overwhelmed, but you are tracking the wrong information that you cannot look at, those are not the metrics to track and they’re not the actions that you need to take that’ll actually move you forward. What’s the biggest lever that you can pull? That’s what you need to be looking for.
Emily Hirsh:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So tying meaning to your metrics is the key, what’s the story behind the metrics? What are they telling you? What you’ll only know if you understand the meaning and the action behind each metric. And I mean, there’s so many metrics you could look at in Facebook, there’s relevancy score and CPM and click through rate, but really you could get it down to your cost per click and make a decision off of that. Especially if you’re new and you’re looking at, don’t overwhelm yourself, there is a lot, but you don’t have to know every one to be able to see a problem. Because usually you’ve got a cost per click problem, while, you also have a click-through rate and a CPM problem, they’re all there, but you can look at that one to find it.
Karie Price:
Yeah. I love that. We are firm believers in using data to make decisions. And I love what you guys were saying about it’s about the right data and the things that are going to help you make decisions, not just data for the sake of data. Speaking of data, Emily, so I know that people are trying to figure out the data that they’re tracking and the impacts of what they have visibility to. Can you touch on a little bit for us? I know everyone’s talking about the iOS changes and what can we track? What can we see? How has that impacted your clients and what are, maybe just help put people’s minds at ease a little bit around that?
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah. So it’s been super interesting to watch it unfold and we definitely have seen an impact in the tracking. And I think there’s still a lot of confusion over what tracking am I losing? So first to bring clarity on that, anything happening in the actual app, you won’t lose, the people who watch your videos, who engage with your Facebook, those are still audiences that you can have, and you will have and they’re accurate. The audiences you lose is when they leave Facebook, because basically they’re opting out of being tracked by Facebook, outside of Facebook’s app. So that will impact your pixel potentially if people opt out. So what Facebook’s been trying to do is create a guessing model for you, where they are trying to say, this is what we think the conversions are and they’re still working it out.
Emily Hirsh:
And so it’s interesting, like in some accounts we’ve seen barely any impact and then some, we have seen a lot of impact. And so we’ve used Google UTM codes and that as a backup. We also, when it’s possible for clients, we’ll have a dedicated ads funnel for them, so it’s like, you’ve got your organic traffic and your emails, and that all goes to this funnel. And then we just have an ads funnel, so we can tag the lead so we can cross check those numbers and those sales. So it is impacting tracking. And you have to have some stops in place outside of Facebook, whatever works for you and your system. And then I’d also say, one of the things we didn’t know how it was going to impact is audiences, lookalike audiences. If we lose the data, then what happens with our audiences?
Emily Hirsh:
And so we are seeing that doing a few things, one, the bigger lookalike audiences, 5% started working with this change over 1% and 2%, which used to be what we recommend. And I think that’s because the way Facebook’s trying to combat this is they’re going to have smaller audiences, but try to have them be more quality than they used to be before to try and combat the changes. That’s my theory, but we are seeing recreating your audiences is doing better than using the old ones prior to iOS, using those bigger audiences, because they’re actually smaller than they used to be. And so that’s still working and honestly, Facebook has so much data, I do think they’re going to be fine. I think it’s like, they’re figuring it out and everything right now still. So I think number one, having some stop in place to have another form of tracking, whether that is UTM codes with your Google analytics or using a separate funnel, or there are other softwares out there, we’re maybe building one for next year. And having that in place is important and will continue to be.
Emily Hirsh:
And then if you’re struggling, like people have said, oh, my audience has stopped working, try and create new ones because it’s really interesting. My team’s been reporting brand new ad accounts are actually doing crazy well because it’s like brand new audiences. And so that’s promising if you haven’t run ads, but if you’ve got old lookalike audiences, try and create those new ones with the different parameters and see if that helps.
Karie Price:
I love that.
Caitlin Bacher:
That is super helpful.
Karie Price:
Yeah. And if I could just summarize, because I want everyone to really hear what Emily just said, Facebook ads still work.
Emily Hirsh:
Yes, 100%. Yeah. People are still making lots of money with them.
Caitlin Bacher:
So before we head out Emily, I just wanted to make sure that we give our listeners a chance to know where they can learn more about you. I know you have a course, I know you have your agency where people can actually hire you to help you run their Facebook ads. Where can they learn more about you?
Emily Hirsh:
Yeah. So Hirshmarketing.com is my website and will have all the information. I have a podcast that I put out twice a week. We definitely do a lot to put out up to date information in our monthly report and different alerts and things you can sign up for. And then yes, we do have a done with you program and then our full done for you services that if either one are a fit for you, you can apply and speak with our team.
Caitlin Bacher:
I love that. Well, I hope everyone listening does head over and check out everything that Emily has to offer. Thank you so much, Emily. I know you’re so busy and family, the business, everything and I just really appreciate you giving your time to us today.
Emily Hirsh:
Thanks for having me. It was so fun.
Karie Price:
Thanks Emily.
Caitlin Bacher:
Are you ready to scale your online course business so you can impact the lives of more people and create real change in the world? Join us inside our signature program Scale with Success® where you’ll get the content coaching and community you need to successfully implement our proven process to help you scale, so you can start reaping the rewards of running a highly profitable online course business. Scale with Success® is a multi-year group coaching experience built for online course creators who are ready to scale their business to and through $1 million with certainty as a result of having the right support at the right time. What are you waiting for? Click over to scalewithsuccess.com and apply now.
Today’s episode is brought to you by Scale With Success® Accelerator — an online course designed to help you generate launch-sized revenue without lanching. If you want to learn MORE about our proven method for success, click here to watch my free masterclass. See you in there!